LPG in Finland - Nestekaasu

[Suomenpoika]

Hello

I have a question concerning LPG (liquified petroleum gas).
I dont mean natural gas - "maakaasu".
In many European countries are cars with LPG. They can drive with normal fuel or LPG.
Every car with a gasoline motor can be converted to a LPG car.
Here in Germany the number of LPG petrol stations is increasing. Over 1200, the half of them in the last few years.

Why aren´t there any LPG stations in Finland?

Mfg Mikko

[Tomi]

I have no idea why, must be our very strange and aggressive tax system that slows the progress here.

Questions:
- what modifications are needed for LPG use?
- is it more economic in germany now to use it compared to regular gasoline?

Welcome Mikko to the forum, you must have connections to Finland

[Suomenpoika]

Thanks for welcoming me.

1 Liter LPG cost in my area (Hannover) approx. 0,61 €. In Some areas in Germany it is about 0,50 €. One liter "bensiini" 95 costs now up to 1,39 €.

Although there is an additional consumption (10-25% more) compared to normal fuel, its still worth it to converse, for more or less long distance drivers.

The conversion cost from 1200 up to 3000 Euro.
In my case (I Have an W124 300CE) it costed 1700 Euro, because its an old car with KE-Injection.
Modern cars gets systems, where the gas is blown into each cylinder and its controlled by the computer chip. But my old mercedes hasn´t something like that

The gas is blown into the throttle valve, while the fuel injection is stopped.

From a little switch in the car you can easily change from fuel to gas while driving.

In germany the number of gas cars is increasing at the moment, due to the increasing fuel prices. In other countires like Italy oder the Netherlands gas is common since 30 years. there are a lot of gas cars and gas stations.
For my summer finland holiday i tried to find a gas station in finnland, but havent found one. But I still have my fuel tank, so its no problem. (In only hurts in my money pocket
I hope you understood my writing. And if you have any questions please do not hesitate to ask.

Here is one link about LPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquified_petroleum_gas

And here about the conversion
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/lpg5.htm

Best regards
Mikko

[Mariini]

I believe that there is one gas station in Helsinki which serves gas. Therefore some manufacturers have started to sale LPG cars, like Volvo and Fiat, Opel and some others sell vans at the moment which can use gas.

But... Fiat Punto LPG costs ~5000€ more than it's "petrol using" sister, so who on earth is going to buy one!? Insane! Volvo's prices are more reasonable, it is a good solution compared to normal 2.5 petrol model, but only to those who live in Helsinki.

[Marde]

That one station in Helsinki is serving CNG (Compressed Natural Gas), not LPG (propane). We had busses which used LPG, but recent versions are running with CNG which is delivered from Russia. CNG can also be produced from LPG and is called LCNG. More detailed information if interested can be found by using Google and search 'what is CNG'.

I have been driving both types of busses, LPG was really fast mover... like driving a normal car but problems with idle when engine is cold. Stalls very easily. In Helsinki we have MAN, Mercedes and Volvo CNG-busses. I dont know how well it works with passenger cars or vans, but it seems that heavy vehicles still need some development. Too much routine maintenance, like babies... need attention all the time

[Suomenpoika]

That one station in Helsinki is serving CNG (Compressed Natural Gas), not LPG (propane). We had busses which used LPG, but recent versions are running with CNG which is delivered from Russia. CNG can also be produced from LPG and is called LCNG. More detailed information if interested can be found by using Google and search 'what is CNG'.

I think you mean LNG (Liquified natural gas) and CNG (compressed natural gas). It is mainly Methan.

LPG is Propan and Butan.

Sad, that there arent any gas stations in Finland. Still dont know why. taxes, Laws or other reasons?

T. Mikko

[Marde]

Fuel-tax has been usually very "interesting" in Finland. If you have a diesel-mercedes which annual tax is... lets say 500e. For LPG, alcohol or other 'alternative-fuel' vehicles tax has been 6-10 times that 500!!!! And even governments own test vehicles have been paying that higher tax!!! So, what's the point for average people even try to get a car like that? This matter has been very efficiently braking evolution of alternative-fuel cars.

Present situation is different. There is no additional tax for LPG/CNG-cars anymore. But average people dont even know there are Gas-operated cars for sale in finland. And they have to work well even -30 degrees celcius. For example in Brazil there's huge amount of vehicles working with alcohol. But it doesnt ignite at our winter temperatures. And those LPG-busses had cold running problems too.

As sad it is, based on my experiences with busses, if someone asks me if it is a good deal to buy one... I would say to forget that idea. If you have time to wait tow truck every day, check ignition parts once a week and you can stand all those engine running problems, then its your car. Or if you dont need to drive with it.

[Suomenpoika]

Ok, I understand it with the temperatures
But in Sweden there are also LPG stations, and then there must be also some drivers
Here you can check out where stations in Europe are
http://www.gas-tankstellen.info

But that I dont think that there are still a lot of problems with LPG. The technoligy is older than 30 Years. The systems are developed further and further. New technolgies dont even dont have any power loss any more.

And how it is with the taxes on the fuel etc?
In Germany there is a tax of 65,5 Cent on every liter fuel 95 oktan.
On 1 liter LPG the tax is only 9,5 Cent until the Year 2009.

I heard in Denmark was also an booming LPG industrie. But then the goverment put up the taxes and gas was so expensive like fuel. Then no one bought it from there on.

Regards

[Marde]

In Finland (at least) 75% of fuel price is tax. So if 1 liter 95 costs 1.35, then tax is around 1e. This tax added with others taken from cars means lots of money to government. When talking about alternative fuels, discussion always starts with tax income for government. Its sad, cos basic idea for using those other choices is environmental.

And what comes to Sweden, they have been very interested there about alternative fuel vehicles. Government, cities, people... all are thinking that something must be done. In Stockholm, with alternative fuel vehicle you dont need to pay that new road tax, parking is free etc. etc. So, its all about attitudes. I think they have even special financing when you are buying a new alternative fuel car.

As you said, LPG technology is over 30 years old. Where are our cars using it?

[Suomenpoika]

As you said, LPG technology is over 30 years old. Where are our cars using it?

Hey
what exactly you mean by "our"?

Greetings

[Mariini]

I guess our means us, Finns. Where are "our" gascars, everyone else have them, why don't we...

[SamuliS]

There isnt any LNG stations in Finland, thats what some Estonians had to find out while standing in CNG station in Malmi. You might get some LNG from AGA, just to survive lets say to Estonia where it is more common...

[Suomenpoika]

Would be interesting to find out, WHY there aren´t any LPG stations in Finland.

Regards
Mikko

[Suomenpoika]

Any news?

Mikko

[Spudenius]

I`ve heard that they were launching sales/conversion of LPG cars & trucks in Finland back in the 60`s. The company managed to stay in business for one
year. The goverment sabotaged the business by adding an enormous tax for
cars usin LPG.

Thats the way it works over here.

You can buy LPG gas in small (5-15kg`s) bottles at almost any gas station in finland but I guess there`s no point using that as it`s damn expensive.....

[Suomenpoika]

I`ve heard that they were launching sales/conversion of LPG cars & trucks in Finland back in the 60`s. The company managed to stay in business for one
year. The goverment sabotaged the business by adding an enormous tax for
cars usin LPG.

Thats the way it works over here.

You can buy LPG gas in small (5-15kg`s) bottles at almost any gas station in finland but I guess there`s no point using that as it`s damn expensive.....

Have you any detailed information about the taxes?

The bottles arent so expensive, but it is very difficult to get the gas out of them. They aren`t concepted for usage in cars.

[Spudenius]

Haven`t got the details. I heard the story from my grandfather. He worked in
a gas company all his life. I`ll ask him....