OM603.960 turbo jeep

[spelius]

Hi there,
first of all I would like to thanks everyone interested in this forum, it is really great to share your ideas and skills.

I year ago I decided to swap the poor performance engine in my jeep cherokee and made a decision to go for OM603.960 mercedes, in europe known as W124 300 TD, 1991, 147hp.
I let my mate to do a complete rebuild and now it is almost ready to build it in. I spent a few days just reading your threads and I have a few questions:

Hopefully my stock rebuilt engine is in a good condition now. My plan is to make the jeep works and then I start to do upgrades. (One reason for choosing OM603 was it´s variability and possible upgrade to 400+HP)

So I would like to start doing things ahead to have easier future upgrades.

I would like to ask you about cooling system - does W124 use engine oil cooler in stock? If yes, where was located? in a front? I probably did not have any in my donor car.....
And what about cooling transmission oil. I have 4speed automatic. Does it have stock tranny cooler?

In a near future I need to start making a custom exhaust pipe. May I ask you about right diameter for now and to have place for future turbo uprgrade. Do I need to care about any special shape the exhaust pipe or just straight backwards? Any sensors?

What are your recomendation about a few first upgrades with running stock and without changing turbo? I read about ALDA removal and tune up injector pump ...


Thanks very much for any advices,
regards,
Paul

[unelmatalo]

Hi Paul,

I have also Jeep Cherokee XJ and i have plans to swap engine also.

I don't have 300D turbo engine yet, but maybe enough time and money to have one before next summer.

I try to answer to your questions as i can.

Mercedes engine oil cooler: Originally located in front of left front tire. Oil cooler for transmission is located right side at the same plase there is also electric fan. So, you need both, better cooling for hihg HP makes your engine more reliable. Transmission starts to slip when overheating.

The right diameter for exhaust pipe could be 4” downpipe, 3,5” in front and (3” or) 3,5” at end part, muffler should be low resistance model. Less shapes or curves = better flow, lower resistance. I don't know about sensors, maybe exhaustgas temperature sensor just before turbocharger.

Injector pump tuning is necessary, but you need bigger pistons for high HP, so it is wise to make both at the same time. At the beginning you could add amount of injection by screwing injector pump. Maybe you help engine breathing by changing air filter system also. What kind of intercooler is in stock? Anyway, you need bigger one and more powerful.

I used some time in finish forum to find answers to you. This serve also my own needs in future. I think i'm happy with 250 hp, but you'll never know.

I would like very much to see some pictures of your project. I have thinked to swap engine couple of years ago, but got wrong information: engines runs opposite directions, witch is not true. That wrong information stops me thinking engine swap, because any other engine is not good enough than Mercedes, so why to waste time?

Please tell me tips for swap project. How is Cherokees electricity working when there is no gas engine sensors? I try to find out in finnish mersuforum, if you have some futher questions.

[spelius]

Hi mate,
First of all, thanks very much for your respond.

I already visited a few mercedes forums but to be honest, when they find out that I´m trying to implant mercedes heart into other name brand vehicle they mostly stopped communicate. I bought a book about W124 but there is still lots of things missing. About oil coolers, tranny coolers and servo pump which I need to work it out as well. I would need some proper mercedes detail catalogue.

Sorry I´m responding with a little delay, but I had to translate my web pages for you and others interested in my project.

so check this out http://www.spelius.com

sections Jeep-cedes, Jeep-cedes engine, Jeep-cedes T/TC spacer are already in english and ready for you

About coolers. My donor car has water cooler only. I´m not very sure about oil cooler and tranny cooler location. You wrote that front of left/right tyre. I have seen a few pictures, in stock it could be just next to the water cooler but it is upside down, so intake is going up and out from bottom... Am I right?
I have seen pictures as well and the car has two little coolers, one on each side and were located in corners of the front bumper. I´m not sure if it is stock or not???

I appologize for stupid question, but why downpipe has a different diameter than the rest of exhaust pipe? Can it be all 4" ?
Some of my mates told me, that behind turbo it does not really metter, just keep it easy flow, but I do not need to go from bigger diameter rearward to smaller diameter or do special curves. Is it true?

It do not have intercooler in stock. and it´s not easy to add intercooler while using stock turbo because of its possition. So changing turbo for a bigger one + doing custom exhaust manifolds + intercooler need to be done at the same time I think...

So I need a bigger pistons as well? May I ask you what brand or part number? I will definitely leave it for a while, but after I put all things back together I will definitely tune my engine up!


About swapping engine into a jeep. I did a few mistakes already. If I would do it again, I would definitely go for 3,9 Cummins like that:

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/features/ ... index.html

It has only 105hp but a huge amount of torque, easy to build in and all spacer are already manufactured and you just need to buy it.

Or Toyota Land Cruiser diesel....

Yes you are right, not as powerful as Mercedes but much easier to do it.

Engine does not run opposite direction but there is problem with oil pan. Is not located in the back of the engine as in jeep (front axle clearence) but in front. So you need to go backwards with whole engine-transmission-transfer case block towards cabine or go higer.

I made a decision to go higher and bought 6,5" rough country lift and I will try to work it out.

I am waiting for my spacer cover now, it should be done in a few weeks so we will see....

Here in Czech we cannot swap engines. If you swap diesel to diesel and petrol to petrol it´s always the way how to make it but you can not swap diesel to petrol or petrol to diesel.

You have petrol 4liter 1991 - should be the better HighOutput 242 one. It is the best engine what you can get. If a were you I would forgot to swap it. It is almost undestructable engine with the same strenght AW4 auto tranny and it works brilliant. If you need better MPG, go for LPG gas conversion. You can upgrade you engine as well from aftermarket parts, you have available stroking to 4,9 and supercharger as well.

The only cherokee´s weakness is diesel engine. The 2,1 Renault ("I am not going anywhere") or 2,5 italian VM shittt ("I am going but I am too fu*** slow") . I originaly have a diesel car. It is 3door rare version and I fall in love with it. So this is my reason for not selling it and buying 4.0liter HO

[pt]

Hey,

Here is one more Cherokee. Not thinking to diesel that but under construction anyway:





Little bit rust.. I hope i can get 3,5" lift before summer from US and some 31" tires. Let see what after that.

Is that Unelmatalo's car whit NP242 or NP231?

[spelius]

NP242 and NP231 are transfer cases used in cherokees 1986-1994.

NP231 (commandtrac) allows you to shift 2H, 4H, N, 4L

NP242 (selectrac) has inner differentinal - shiffting 2H, 4H, 4F, N, 4L

2H - 4x2 Hi - rear wheel drive
4H - 4x4 Hi in a part time - it is all wheel drive but with use on unpaved surface only. You need to allow your wheels to spin to reduct extra torque.
4F - 4x4 Hi full time. Normal use on roads. Proper allwheeldrive.
N - neutral
4L - 4x4 low - gears reduction

So if you want to use 4x4 on a road during a year as well, you need to have selectrac.

Both compatible. Different inner drive shaft diamater with 21 or 23 tooth and 3 different sizes. Small in XJ cherokee, medium ZJ grand cherokee and long in newer XJ cherokees (1996+).

In 1994 cherokee changed transfer cases from NP to NV (different manufature) and it is not compatible any more.
New Process = till 94
New Venture = 94 and up

Sometimes when in Grand cherokee 249 Quadra drive goes wrong, people swap the older selectrac in. It is probably the best transfer case in jeep.

[unelmatalo]

Inside injection pump are elements ( i spoked earlier about pistons ) and for 300+ hp they should be 7 mm. I don't know limits for 7 mm, but i believe 400 hp is not a problem.

I don't know more about coolers, i don't have 300TD.

Down pipe and pipe before muffler is more important to have large diameter. Smaller pipe is much easy to do. I think the smaller end part of pipe lower the volume of your car without lowering power a lot. But it can all be 4", i think only volume raises?

I don't want to go higher 6,5", is there a way to make a new oil pan? I haven't seen 300TD without oil pan. I think the oil inlet for motor oil pump is possible to move with some pipe in oil pan? Any side picture of 300TD without oil pan? Need to search internet...

Maybe the biggest reason for my thinking of swap is because of high MPG. Here in Finland we speak about litres/100km, mine is about 16-21 l/100km. One explain is: i drive most of kilometers from home to work, distance ~5km, so the engine is cold almost hole trip and the "choke" is on (injection is in richer position). But anyway if i drive longer distances, it is still about 15 l/100km with nice driving. My Jeep has only 75000 km driven, so it's in very good shape, and thats why i want to save it. What is that "LPG gas version"?

I had just same kind of Cherokee -90 earlier, years ago and for it those readings was 10-14 l/100km and for 14l/100km you really have to use power and a lot of 4wd slides in wintertime. I newer got bigger consumption with that car, even if i try. ( And that's why i have Jeep again!)

My transfer case is NP242 (selectrac) has inner differentinal - shiffting 2H, 4H, 4F, N, 4L. I did't know my transfer case type before Spelius great explains.

Black is beautiful...


http://i569.photobucket.com/albums/ss13 ... InLake.jpg (How do you link those pics?)

[spelius]

May I ask you how to imagine those "elements" ? and how it works in injection pump?
and is a good thing to remove ALDA. I read that it´s good for elimination smoke when accelerating. How it help power to have it all "open"?

I know that making custom exhaust is complicated. But I have been told that - in diesel cars - behind turbo it does not matter...
I will do exhaust at last so I will have time to test it properly. To have it easier I would go for same diameter pipe with some hi flow muffler just to reduce noise. Who knows, maybe it will sound sweet just straight without anything

I upgraded my pages so http://spelius.com section Jeep-cedes oil pan

I do not want to go higher either. I was thinging to modify the stock. I bought another 5cylinder oilpan. Oil pump chain is the problem to spin the pan around 180degreese and make longer intake. It almost in the simmilar high as the intake so it would save me 3 or 4 cm max. (1"- 2")

(btw:do you use inches or cm? I can do both there in Czech we use cm. The same is with MPG (miles-per-galon) and litres/100km. We use litres as well

When I finish my tranny/transfer case spacer and mount it all engine-tranny-transfer case together and build it in I will see how is the clearence. Mercedes engine is little bit shorter but with my T/TC spacer it should have the same length.

To be honest with you, I think that some oil pan modifying will be needed.

I was thinking about oil sump as well. It use race cars and basicly it works that you have a very thin oil pan, extra oil pump and oil resevoir. I found a company in US where they would provide it as a kit for me, but 3.000 $ basic + shipping and fees.... It is too much for me... It would fix my last problem what I think I will have - oil draw off when climbing.

Mercedes use dry sump in old Mercedes-Benz 450SEL 6.9 but I can not find any of those available... engines or whole car...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_450SEL_6.9

"Dry sump lubrication was originally developed for use in race cars as a way to prevent foaming of the engine oil by the crankshaft, which in turn would create a serious drop in oil pressure. The system circulated twelve quarts of oil between the storage tank and the engine, as opposed to the usual four or five quarts found in V8s with a standard oil pan and oil pump. As a result, the engine itself had no dipstick for checking the oil level. Rather, the dipstick was attached to the inside of the tank's filler cap (accessible from the engine compartment) and the oil level was checked with the engine running and at operating temperature. The dry sump system also had the benefit of extending the oil change interval to 12,500 miles (20,000 km). This, along with hydraulic valve lifters which required no adjusting and special cylinder head gaskets which eliminated the need for periodic retorquing of the head bolts, made the 6.9 nearly maintenance-free for its first 50,000 miles (80,500 km)"






16-21 litres/100 km is allright with automatic tranny. I have 4liter HO with manual and long highway avarage was 13 litres. But can do 25easily

Your problem is the one you picked up. The engine has EFI ECUnit and it take care about sending more fuel when it´s cold. You can smell it as well, more nonburned petrol out from exhaust. I think long-distance start could help. Start your car 15 minutes before you need will help you a lot.
(It is the same with diesel engine, you never reach declared 5l/100km when driving 5 km in the morning and 5 km back at night.)

But 15 litres long-time is perfect!

LPG is converting a car to fuel gas. I think you should have it in Finland as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas

If you use the best LPG type - multiinjection (cost about 1000€). Your normal 15litres petrol increase about liter or liter and half with same amount of power. And LPG is 50% cheaper. So you are able to run it with same money as 8liter/100 km car with jeep 4liter I6 performance.
It has a few disadvantages - gas tank, but you can have one in bottom or in a place for spare tyre and the other one is that you are limeted for access on boats or underground parking lots.

10-14 litres is too good. You have been confused by fuel indicator or something. Old 86-90 cherokees used Renix units and they are known as thirsty fukers... 16-20 normal street use. Many things could go wrong and make it more demanding.

oh yeah, with selectrac you do not need to worry about anything and have proper 4x4. As I wrote before, many Grand Cherokee owners change their newer Quadradrive to select because of its price and reliability. QD is too expensive to repair and use inner lamellas and its very exacting to maintenance controls.

lovely picture mate

[unelmatalo]

Elements are like bigger pistons in fuel injection pump, with bigger elements you can have more fuel with each stroke. Horsepower don't come from nothing. Part number for those are: BOSCH 1 418 305 517. I asked for partnumber in finnish mersuforum and got ansver. One place you can get those is http://holysmoke.fi/ there are "yhteystiedot" (contacts) like: niko.hallama(a)holysmoke.fi, myynti(a)holysmoke.fi . I think you can write to them in english, most people in Finland can speak english somehow. Maybe you can find those part somewhere else, but postage cost for small parts is not so much anyway.

I don't know what ALDA is but if it's a recirculating system, so then you need not to circulate when using high power. Is it possible to built it working only lower rpm's and not working with higher rpm.

You have great pictures at your net site, thanks. I have to think about outside oil pump system, maybe like a low pressure pump just for pumping oil up to high pressure pump... hmmm.. I have almost new tractor hydraulic oil pump in garage, if i put it front of crank axle and use it like a oil pump, do it need a pressure valve to eliminate too high pressure?? Now i need to ask mersuforum about MB oil pan welding properties and oil pump capacity and pressure. I'm lucky when there are a new TIG-welding machine in my working place, only need to learn to use it...and maybe sometime in future weld 300TD oil pan??

About heating engine before driving, here in Finland we have electric preheater in almost every cars engine, because there can be very cold sometimes, maybe -30'C. Many cars have also inside heater for nice warm start, i have also in both cars. Heater warms up engine maybe +30..+50'C, so there is rich fuel mix still sometime.

That 10 l/100km for my previous car in long distance driving is true, i measure kilometers and amount of fuel with every time i tank, and i take tank full every time. (Last time today, todays consumption was 20,4.) I sell my previous Jeep to man, who had Range Rover before and he ask me to tell the truth about consumption many times because he has used to have high consumption like 25 l/100km, when i told about consumption, he didn't believe it. Some weeks after car deal i got a letter from Finlands Lapland like: BIG thanks for great car, you did spell the truth about consumption! So, it is possible!

That's why there must be a way to decrease consumption.

LPG is not possible here in Finland, we don't have places to fill tank. Maybe goverments policy?

Btw. i had 3rd thermostat in engine and engine temperature still varies up and down like +90 to +55'C, no changes after changing thermostat. One possibility is that it still uses richer mix, while driving, when temperature decreases. Maybe those thermostats are too fast, when it opens very fast the engine takes a lot of cold water from radiator and gets cold, then thermostat closes and heating start again. And there is enough time to radiator to get cold again? Where i can found slowly thermostat? Like opening starts at +85'C and fully open +95'C. I think it works now between +89..+90'C. I newer had problem like that before, no matter is it summer or winter. I have had maybe 20 cars with 15 different brands.

[spelius]

Ok I think I got it. Engine needs air and fuel to increase power. With bigger turbo and intercooler I can deliver more cold fresh air and with modifying injection pump I can deliver more fuel.

Is there any chance to change those elements myself? I read about Myna they suppose to be the best. They should have 7mm elements instead of stock 5.5mm. Do you have any idea if they do anything else than only replacing those elements? I read also something about some managing unit you can use from the cabin to modify IP output or something.. ??? Do you know the price for that?

We could take off the oil pump chain wheel. It would save 10cm easiely. BUT I have no idea what should be the oil pressure for delivery pump. It´s too complicated for me just to imagine. I understand that modified oil pan can be very slim just to collect oil but where to pump the oil back when stock oil pump was disabled?

It is complicate to decrease consumption. If engine and all the parts are new but there is a lot of variables. Fuel pump got stuck, injectors, fuel lines, cylinders, exhaust pipes get covered in shit and slow exhaust fumes, calorifier is dead, cooling system get stuck with scale...
So I think is slowely get worse and worse fuel consumption. But 25 is too much...
My mate tried to fix this problem as well... He changed all things I wrote and final after speding many € consumption went down a litre. But never touched 10 litres. It has to be an excellent runner. It is a shame to sell it...

I spoked with my mates from offroad jeep forum and they told me, that the best way what to do is undo the visko fan (airscrew). It is constantly cooling you engine down for no reason. After that you should make a switch for your other electric fan that you can manualy switch it on/off. Start your engine with fan off and it should be hot in 2km...
You actually do not need a fan when driving more than 40km/hour. And when driving in traffic jam you can just manually switch electric fan on.

termostat is not a good idea because it cause overheating your engine.


I am surprised that no LPG in Finland. Maybe because of cold weather. You would need to have heated gas tank for that because it easily freeze.

[spelius]

hi everyone, I´m back again. I just did not have a time to do anything, I graduated in may and spend a perfect summer in Canada.
I hope that you are ok...

So where to start - Finally I put all parts together - mercedes engine + mercedes automatic gearbox and jeep transfer case. I made a spacer between mercedes gearbox and jeep transfer case.

I used a jeep automatic gearbox shaft with break rotor and Hardy disc for the inside and mercedes automatic gearbox back for the spacer.

all together - ready to go in - see on the pictures

http://www.e-album.cz/file.php?IDm=8483#photo
http://www.e-album.cz/file.php?IDm=8484#photo
http://www.e-album.cz/file.php?IDm=8485#photo


I have a little problem with turbo and exhaust manifolds on the left side.
It will probably need a modification.

http://www.e-album.cz/file.php?IDm=8486#photo

I wanted to change exhaust manifold and put a bigger turbo with intercooler later, but probably need to do it now.
Do you have any recommedations about size the turbo, I have a plan to modify a injection pump in 1-2 years, so keep it stock for a moment, still have a lot of things to do.

I would like to go for VNT but as I read - there are still some problems with making it works. Any operation valves.

Does anyone have a modified manifolds for sale?

[sofi]

Thinking to buy a Turbo Jeep But i am out of cash